As sinners, we deserve the just punishment of Hell. After we are saved and justified, do we still deserve the same death (punishment) as sinners?
-kevin
the pope was originally a nun
As sinners, we deserve the just punishment of Hell. After we are saved and justified, do we still deserve the same death (punishment) as sinners?
-kevin
the pope was originally a nun
Yes,
we still deserve death, and hell.
It is the mercy of God, in salvation, that denies us our just reward, and the grace that gives us good.(namely Himself)
I love that you asked the imputed righteousness question.
HA HA HA Declared righteous
Eat some Sproul
Comment by Chris — July 7, 2008 @ 10:38 pm |
I said that, He just commented first.
Comment by woodyhambrick — July 8, 2008 @ 12:25 am |
chris just said it because i thought it.
Comment by helpthereisaplankinmyeye — July 8, 2008 @ 2:25 am |
but seriously,
if christians deserve death/hell just as everyone else does, and Christ died to ransom/purchase those who become christians, would it make God unjust to send us to hell?
would it be shorting Christ his due earnings?
Comment by helpthereisaplankinmyeye — July 8, 2008 @ 2:35 am |
Ooh, excellent questions Luke,
Therefore there is now no comdemnation in Christ Jesus(too lazy to look things up, it is very late(I work nights you fool))
Christ died not only to ransom us from hell, but to make us righteous. We are now righteous people who have to battle off bad things, we are not bad people who have to fight for righteousness. Therefore I propose that the answer to the question is SORT OF(deep booming voice that echoes from wall to wall eerily)
Because we are actually righteous as well as counted righteous because of the doctrine of imputed righteousness as well as enabling Grace. We do good things for good reasons and no one who does Good deserves to go to hell, but no one who does bad deserves to go to heaven so I reiterate SORT OF
Comment by plankremover — July 8, 2008 @ 6:59 am |
Chris,
this is super off topic, but i know you will see it here.
Where did Kevin’s first post and Clearing the Board go?
Comment by helpthereisaplankinmyeye — July 8, 2008 @ 7:13 am |
i ended the other posts, no traffic
…bye, bye
And we are only righteous (including our faithful works) by a alien righteousness. It is not ours, it is Christ’s, under whom we are covered. We do not bear a righteousness that is based upon us at all, to include our works, which are wrought by and for Him. Even the faith to believe is a gift. All things are His, including his righteousness, and delivered to us as such.
We stand guilty, deserving of death and hell, and instead he looks over to His son, who has merited for Himself the fullness of righteousness, and counts us as “Secondborn.”
Comment by Chris — July 8, 2008 @ 11:12 am |
God would be absolutely “JUST,” and consistant to His own laws, if he sent all Christians to hell. After all, Hell is the wage we have earned for oursleves.
I do not think the modern church has a clear understanding of what the term, “wages of sin” means. Hell is our justly earned wage for the totality of our living this life in a fallen state.
It is totally “UNJUST” when God allows a Christian into Heaven.
When we use words like “Just,” and “Unjust,” we are in a legalist vernacular. And we must view these things through that lense, as it is the lense we established with those terms.
What we deserve is not changed by God’s actions on our behalf. We deserve Hell.
“Peter would have cut the ear of a modern pope.” 397
Comment by woodyhambrick — July 8, 2008 @ 6:48 pm |
I agree with woody.
EXCEPT where God would be unjust to allow Christians into heaven.
Comment by Chris — July 8, 2008 @ 7:33 pm |
Being “just,” means applying “Justice” according to the letter of the law, as well as being consistant with the intent of the law. It is paying the wage someone earns. (Woody paraphrase of Noah Webster. The applicable definition he gives is; valid within the law.)
Being “Unjust” is the opposite. It is not applying according to those things. It is not paying the wage someone earned.
Thus, it is absolutely “Unjust” that we Christians do not receive our just wage (which we both agree is due to a Christian) of Hell. By definition it is Unjust that a Christian is allowed into Heaven. You are looking at the term “Unjust,” as exclusively negative. That is not required.
Message written by Augustine to a dyslexic Pope:
“!erohW” 397
Comment by woodyhambrick — July 9, 2008 @ 12:09 am |
God would be unjust to send Sinners to hell because he would, in so doing, profane His son’s sacrifice. It is absolutely just to send Christians to heaven because of the death of Christ. To say otherwise is simply ludicrous.
I think we’re overlooking, in the overall discussion, some of the things that happen when we are regenerated.
For instance John 1(too sleepy to look up the verse) “To those that believed he gave the RIGHT to become children of God.”
When they believed they had the RIGHT it was Just for them to be children of God, they did not deserve the belief, which was a gift of God, but when that gift was given the right was given as well. That is in large part why we NO LONGER DESERVE hell. I restate, we are good people having to fight off bad desires, not bad people trying to have good desires.
Woody’s last post doesn’t make any sense, as far as I can tell, biblically, but that may be the lack of sleep, Chris you chime in on that one.
Chris says:
And we are only righteous (including our faithful works) by a alien righteousness. It is not ours, it is Christ’s, under whom we are covered. We do not bear a righteousness that is based upon us at all, to include our works, which are wrought by and for Him. Even the faith to believe is a gift. All things are His, including his righteousness, and delivered to us as such
No disagreement here, but the righteousness we bear is our own because of the Cross. The Spirit dwells in us, The Spirit empowers us. We do actual righteous deeds through the power of Christ who strengthens. It is an alien righteousness that we possess indeed, but we do possess it. This is the Grace of God.
I won’t be posting any more till Saturday, I need to get sleep and this is keeping me from doing so.
Comment by plankremover — July 10, 2008 @ 5:57 am |
I may agree with the two of you…
…IF THAT WERE THE QUESTION ON THE TABLE.
STOP TRYING TO FIND FAULT WITH ME, AND START ANSWERING THE QUESTION ON THE TABLE!!!
If what I wrote were followed by the name “Piper,” you would be fighting each other over who could agree the most, and the fastest.
Kevin asked;
The question is not “if we are covered,” or “can Jesus overcome our guild,” or “Can God create a rock so big that even He cant lift it?” The question is, what do we deserve? The answer is Yes!, we deserve Hell. It can be no other.
Hold on, I have someone here who would like to talk to you.
Hey Guys, This is John Piper:
Woody is right. We are redeamed as Christians, and by the borrowed righteousness of Jesus, we will get Heaven, but what we deserve is nothing more than Death, Hell, and eternal separation from God forever.
Woody, is that good enough buddy?
This is Woody again: Yea, Thanks Jack. Call me, we’ll do lunch again, soon.
Where was I, Bo, do not question my logic, or say that something I said “doesn’t make sense,” again!, EVER IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE. EVER!!! Everytime you do it only makes you look more silly than usual. Aren’t you tired of being wrong? If you had displayed any ability to apply any amount of elementary logic ever, it may give you some ground to stand on. But you haven’t!, EVER!
Come on! Evaluate what is said regardless of who it is that said it. Even if it is me. And always view an answer through the lense of the question asked, not through an absolute lense. AAAAAaaaaauuugggghh!
Dude, I will drive to Dallas, and I will pick up puny Bo by the feet, and beat Chris with Bo! I bet Kevin and Luke both would like to buy tickets to that.
Don’t make me call Piper again!
“Chris and Bo make the Pope look right.” 397
Comment by woodyhambrick — July 10, 2008 @ 8:30 am |
woody,
as much as i love your post, i think both chris and bo were responding to the question i posted here in the comments…
Comment by helpthereisaplankinmyeye — July 10, 2008 @ 9:17 am |
Even So, Bo and Chris are Dumb.
“Bo and Chris are dumb.” 397
Comment by woodyhambrick — July 10, 2008 @ 6:11 pm |
HA Ha Ha! Alien Righteousness…
Comment by Chris — July 11, 2008 @ 1:26 am |
Hey Bo, Chris just threw you under the bus. I talked to him and he said that the quote that you attributed to him is as authentic as the quotes that Luke attributes to Luther. SO!!!!!
Chris is off my “Death” list, and your on it twice.
Did all that make sense to you?
Was it logically written?
“The heresies themselves receive their weapons from philosophy.”-Tertullian early third century.
Comment by woodyhambrick — July 12, 2008 @ 9:07 pm |
anything more to say, is it satisfied?
Comment by Chris — July 22, 2008 @ 12:13 am |